About this episode
The media and stories around us around us are more than just entertainment, they provide a common space, a piece of the world around us that connects us to others. We learn from these stories, shape our own views and ideas, and listen to and share these ideas with others. They provide a purpose often overlooked, which Dan Santat, as the son of Thai immigrants in rural SoCal, relied upon to connect with a foreign world.
"It (TV) was my junk food, but also it was my in with the kids to be able to talk about pop culture, to know all the little nuances and jokes about the cultural zeitgeist things." - Dan Santat
As the son of Thai immigrants in rural SoCal, Dan relied on the storytelling of the American 80s as his “cultural in”. His fascination with storytelling coupled with his talent for drawing led him on a self-discovery journey that would ultimately diverge from the career path his parents had urged him to pursue.
In this episode, Dan (The Adventures of Beekle: The Unimaginary Friend, Are We There Yet, The Aquanaut) talks about the freedoms and limitations of growing up in the 80s, and how they helped him discover a passion for storytelling as a means of communicating. He also shares his experience of embracing art, despite his parents' differing expectations, and how his journey has impacted the messages he imparts to the youth around him today.
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In his reading challenge, Profound Panels, Dan wants listeners to embrace the hidden wisdom in the medium that first sparked his love of storytelling: comics.
You can find his list and all past reading challenges at thereadingculturepod.com.
This week's Beanstack featured librarian is Connie Sharp, the Librarian Training and Development Specialist for Metro Nashville Public Schools. As a former elementary librarian, Connie has a unique perspective to share and talked with us about the importance of the partnership between administrators and librarians.
Contents
- Chapter 1 - Thai in SoCal
- Chapter 2 - Crime Fighting (vehicle here)
- Chapter 3 - The Trial and Death of Socrates
- Chapter 4 - A Book About Dan
- Chapter 5 - Passing on Heritage (and Advice)
- Chapter 6 - A Storyteller’s Legacy
- Chapter 7 - Reading Challenge
- Chapter 8 - Beanstack Featured Librarian
Author Reading Challenge
Download the free reading challenge worksheet, or view the challenge materials on our helpdesk.
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Dan Santat:
It was my junk food, but also it was my in with the kids to be able to talk about pop culture, to know all the little nuances and jokes about the cultural zeitgeist of things.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Dan Santat's childhood can be described as caught between cultures. As the son of Thai immigrants, he never felt quite connected with his rural SoCal surroundings, or with other Asian immigrants, or even his own Thai background. In an attempt to find common ground, he attached himself to the pop media around him, the poppier, the better. TV and comics became his cultural Bibles, as reliable as they may or may not have been.
Dan Santat:
Oh my God, in the 1980s, everyone talks about the drugs and the cocaine and everything that was going around in Hollywood writer rooms, and it's evident.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Dan is the author Illustrator known for his titles such as his Cal Dicot winning book, The Adventures of Beekle: The Unimaginary Friend, After the Fall: How Humpty Dumpty Got Back up Again and The Aquanaut. As It Happens, just before we did this interview, Dan received a call letting him know that he had been long listed for the National Book Award for his graphic novel, A First Time for Everything.
Dan Santat:
Everyone on the East coast just sending me texts, and I woke up and they said, "Congratulations." I said, "For what?" They said, "You don't know?" And I'm like, "Why would I know? I literally opened my eyes." All that came together.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Very exciting.
In this episode, Dan talks about the freedoms and limitations of growing up in the '80s, and how they helped him discover a passion for storytelling as a means of communicating. He shares his journey of embracing art, even though his parents had different dreams for him, and how all of this ultimately led to his go-to message for student visits, don't go to college. That may be a bit out of context, but we'll elaborate.
My name is Jordan Lloyd Bookey, and this is The Reading Culture, a show where we speak with authors and illustrators about ways to build a stronger culture of reading in our communities. We dive into their personal experiences, their inspirations, and why their stories and ideas motivate kids to read more. Make sure to check us out on Instagram for giveaways @thereadingculturepod, and you can also subscribe to our newsletter at thereadingculturepod.com.
Okay, Dan, so I read that you were born in Brooklyn, but I know you grew up in Southern California, right? So let's start with you sharing a bit about your early life.
Dan Santat:
I was born in Brooklyn. My parents immigrated from Thailand in 1968, my father was a doctor and my mother was a nurse. And of course in the '70, New York was pretty rough. They lived there with a collective of other Thai expats that just kind of came from the country, came to America, and then they all slowly had this huge migration, this mass migration off into Southern California. I'd been living in Ventura County ever since I was three years old, so pretty much most of my life was in very rural, White, conservative, Christian community. I was just one of a handful of Asian kids in town, and then on top of that, you would be the one kid from Thailand, and no one knew where that was, so I was pretty much dropped into a place, and I was a complete alien.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Yeah, they're like, "We're used to Chinese," or whatever. Is that The idea is that kids didn't know anything about?
Dan Santat:
I mean, back in the day it was you're either Chinese or Japanese or maybe Vietnamese, but no one knew anything else beyond those two. And then when you would say you were from Thailand, the assumption was Taiwan.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Oh, wow.
Dan Santat:
And then in terms of cultural integration, we would hang out with other Asian people. We would be hanging out at Chinese New Year's or Japanese festivals, and I would just be the Asian kid from Thailand that would hang around other Chinese kids and say, "I have no idea what any of you were saying. I don't really know what this ceremony's about, but thanks for having me."
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Yeah. What about your parents? I guess they were in the same boat as you, right? I mean, how did your parents manage that?
Dan Santat:
They shook off the whole Thai identity pretty quickly, because they thought it was important to assimilate as well. They never taught me Thai because they wanted me to learn English. And I think back in the day, the philosophy early on was if you teach a foreign language and then you teach English, you're going to have an accent. My father was just fascinated. One of the reasons why he came to America was because he was a huge fan of American pop culture. His favorite movie was Shane. He loved listening to Paul Anka and Elvis and The Beatles and things like that, so he was dying to come to this country, because he was dirt poor. He was dirt poor in Thailand. There was something about him that he was running away from something too.
My mother, on the other hand, she came to America to be with my dad. And what I had learned was that it wasn't their intention to stay here permanently. They wanted to go back to Thailand and practice medicine, but my dad came out here just for a residency, just to get a taste of America.
Now, the loaded issues behind that was that my father in Thailand, back in the day, he got into med school. And in Thailand, they were in need of doctors, and so they were offering practically free educations for doctors in medical school. The government paid for their education. And so my dad goes out to do a residency with every intention of coming back, but the Thai government took an offense and said, "Oh, you're just like all those others. You wanted to go out there and make your fortune with the education that we gave you. You can go stay there. We don't need you. There's plenty of other doctors that we could produce in this country without you." And we stayed.
So my mom was very close to her family, and so there was something very crushing about the realization that she would have to stay, and that wasn't revealed to me until maybe three years ago.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Wow.
Dan Santat:
I never knew that. Yeah.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Oh my God. That's a lot of pressure on your family for that move to pay off. How do you think that impacted their expectations of you then?
Dan Santat:
Yeah, it was this thing growing up where they were insistent that I grew up and be a doctor and I go off to a four-year college. And I'm getting a microbiology degree to be a dentist, and I don't even want to be a dentist. It felt like I was doing something for these two people that I didn't even want.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Yeah, unfortunately, I don't know if it's that uncommon of a story, honestly. But it does make me think about your recent memoir and in that you talk a lot about, or write a lot about hiding your love of drawing from other kids, and given what you're saying, I wonder if you also hid it from your parents.
Dan Santat:
There was a thing about my mom, so I think part of it was that she knew, she knew I love to draw, so she was pretty cool with it. She even let me enter artwork in the county fair.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Oh, how'd you do?
Dan Santat:
I have a whole tub of ribbons. And in fact, -one year, one year I won what was known as a sweepstakes and I got this nice little plaque. And so I guess what happens is if you are of a certain age group, I guess nine to 12, and you win the most ribbons for that category, you win the sweepstakes plaque. I remember my mom and I were like, oh my gosh, you won so many ribbons. You actually got a bigger award. This is pretty cool. My dad didn't even show up to the award ceremony. It was in complete like, "No, no, no. You're feeding the wrong thoughts in his head." I think my mom feeling so guilty that maybe I was starved of a proper childhood because of her lupus, and I didn't get to go out and hang out with the kids like usual. It was her way of making amends. You love to draw, you have to stay at home, draw as much as you want, because I feel bad that you have to stay here because I'm sick.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Did you like to read as a kid? Were you a reader?
Dan Santat:
I was not. So the thing about it was that my parents came from Thailand, and so they weren't familiar with any of the Western classics, so they didn't really know what to hand me other than these utility books. Again, just driven to being a doctor. You should read a science book, you should read a math book. And it was just like-
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Must have hated it.
Dan Santat:
Reading sucks. I hate reading so much. This is the worst.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Were they get some only nonfiction in this house? That's what we're.
Dan Santat:
Kind of, yeah, pretty much. But then also, I couldn't relate to any of the books like, "Oh, here's Red Badge of Courage." I don't care.
"Oh, this was back in the colonial days." I know none of this. I can't relate to this at all. And it wasn't until I had a paper route, I was 12 years old, I was inheriting a paper route from another kid in the neighborhood, and while he was showing me the ropes, he shows me this big chest, this wooden chest that he had in his room, and it was filled with all the Marvel Comics at that time. And he's telling me the storyline of Thor and how it ties into the Hulk and how it ties into the X-Men, and my mind is blown, and I'm just like, "Oh my gosh, this is amazing. This is a soap opera for me, and I need to know what happens to these characters every month." And it was comic books that really got me into it.
And I think what lent it even further was that because I love to draw, you would see these amazing drawings of these superheroes and you're thinking, "I just want to know how they do this. How do they draw these superheroes so accurately with their muscles and their knuckles on their hands?" And so you're just copying the pictures because you're trying to learn, but you can't take, our classes can't-
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
There's no YouTube tutorials when you're-
Dan Santat:
Right. And so you're just clinging onto anything you can. Maybe if I draw like that enough, I'll become that. And you're just copying pictures. And that was my education. Part of the insecurity about people not wanting to share my art, is that kids can often see the one little flaw and then they will lean into that. "Why is his leg so long?" And it being my precious hobby that I held so dear, it was like, I think I was getting enough criticism from my parents. I didn't want to hear any more criticism from other friends.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Because you like comics? Were you into movies and Marvel?
Dan Santat:
Oh my gosh, I was such a TV junkie. Back in the day, they would say like, oh two hours of TV a week. I was ingesting five to six hours of TV a day. It was my junk food. But also it was my in with the kids, to be able to talk about pop culture, to know all the little nuances and jokes about the cultural zeitgeist of things. And so, oh my God, in the 1980s, everyone talks about the drugs and the cocaine and everything that was going around in Hollywood rider rooms, and it's evident. You're like, oh, here's a show about a talking crime fighting car. Okay. Here's a one about a crime fighting motorcycle. Here's too about crime fighting helicopters. And then you had the A-Team, and then of course, oh my gosh, HBO. You couldn't catch the movie in the theater? It'll be on HBO in five, six months. And then you had the sleepovers where you sneak down to the TV at 1:00 AM.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Those rated movies.
Dan Santat:
You watch the movie you're not supposed to watch.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. No one knows. There's no history, no history of it to look up.
Dan Santat:
I've watched so many movies. I've watched so many things that I should not have watched when I was a kid, and now I make books for your kids. So I think I came out okay. The one book that I like to bring up to people that is I think is quite scarring, but you couldn't pull that out of the hands of any kid. In second grade, it was Flowers in the Attic.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Oh man, how are we allowed to read? Why was that?
Dan Santat:
How are we allowed to read Flowers in the Attic?
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
I still have a visceral reaction when I think about that. Just what a story. I guess that was some of the early YA.
Dan Santat:
Yeah. And now everyone's gone crazy. It's funny because we're these Gen X kids that grew up having the freedom go out, do whatever, read whatever, and now we're just like, "Don't touch that one, it has rainbows in it." How did we end up these idiots that are just so overly protective when the world was handed us this platter? Go, go get in trouble, go break stuff. And now we're like, don't touch anything. It'll kill you.
For the best possible state of your soul as I say to you, wealth does not bring about excellence, but excellence makes wealth and everything else good for men, both individually and collectively.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
That quote comes from The Trial and Death of Socrates. The book contains a series of collected dialogues in which Plato analyzes, you guessed it, the trial sentencing and eventual execution of Socrates, as well as his philosophical ideas and the events surrounding his death. The book made it into Dan's life as required reading for his college humanities class. This passage caught Dan at a crucial point. Following the expectations of his parents, he had been on the path to becoming a doctor, but it was that powerful sentence that gave him a fresh perspective.
Dan Santat:
I think the reason why it was so moving to me was because my entire life, my father always told me that wealth would bring me happiness. And I think a lot of this was him just constantly deterring me from trying to be an artist. He would just say, "What are you talking about? Why would you want to be an artist? Go be a doctor and make money, and then that money will make you so happy." It was contradictory to what my father said about his life philosophy. And so I remember reading that book, it was over Thanksgiving break, so I was reading it at home. And I looked around the house and my dad just had all these gadgets and things that he would play with for a little bit, and he would just throw it off to the side. It was that instant gratification of buying the thing, and then just moving on to the next thing. And I looked at it and I looked at the whole room as like, this is just a whole room of junk. He has no connection to any of these things. And it made me stop and think, if wealth isn't the answer, then what is it that I seek? Because I already know I don't want to be a doctor. And if wealth isn't the answer to my happiness, then maybe I'm making a terrible mistake in this pursuit of becoming a doctor.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
But this shift in perspective didn't seal the deal for his transition away from medicine. Plato had a little help from Dan's college roommates.
Dan Santat:
The process of my college roommates telling me not to be a dentist was a long, arduous process because I just kept regurgitating what my parents told me, and I would say to him like, "Oh, no, art is a hobby. That'll never be a thing." And then they would say to me, "Yeah, but it's clearly something that you could do all day and you like to do it." I had made a portfolio behind my parents' back, and I applied to art schools just because my roommate said, "Let's just see if you can get in. Aren't you curious if you're good enough just to get in?" And so I put together a portfolio. I went online and this thing called the internet, which was still pretty new at the time. I got into all these art schools. And then there was this feeling of, okay, I'm hooked. I think I want to do this.
But the one thing that I think really tipped it over the edge from my parents, it was around the time when The Lion King was really blowing up, and you find out that some of that animation was done with computers and all these articles are out saying, "You could make a lot of money being an animator in this industry." And I remember just cutting out all these articles and then showing my parents, I got into art school and I think this might be a valid thing. It really took a lot of the concern away from my father especially. It was funny because when I told my mom, my mom was like, "Oh, I knew this was going to happen." And so once I got into art school and I accepted and my parents accepted it, I have to really hand it to my parents because they would tell all their friends like, "Oh, Dan's going to art school." And all their friends said, "Why are you letting him throw his life away like that?"
And honestly, they went up to bat for me. They said, "Oh, no, no, you'll see. He'll show you. He'll do something great one day." And then I remember when I finally got my first book deal, it was with Arthur Levine, and my parents were just going back to these parties like, "Oh, yeah, that book, Harry Potter? The editor is working on our son's first book." And then you had this cartoon show, and it was just like, "Oh, yeah, you ever heard of Disney Channel? You ever heard of Disney? Yeah. My son has a cartoon show with them now."
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
If he's going to take this path, then we are going to let people know.
Dan Santat:
Right. And it's like, "Oh, what's your son? Oh, he's a neurosurgeon? That's stupid. My son has a cartoon show on Disney Channel." So it went both ways and it paid off in spades to them, right?
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Right. But once you got there. And then did you always know you wanted to be, because you were really into comics, did you know, I want to tell stories for kids? Because interesting because an artist and illustrator, but you are now over the years, have really become more and more and more of a storyteller.
Dan Santat:
Here's the awful thing, is that when I was a kid, I loved movies. I loved TV, and I remember thinking I wanted to be an actor. But then I would watch movies, I would watch TV, and the only Asian people I saw in movies were the ones that were getting beaten up by Jackie Chan or Steven Segal or Van Dam. And there were always these street thugs and things like that, or drug dealers in Chinatown or whatever. But also, it was this whole idea of just like, oh, you want to be an Asian movie star? You have to know kung fu. You have to know karate or something like that. And I remember just, oh God, at such a ridiculously young age realizing, oh, I can never be that.
But there was a love that I had definitely for storytelling. Because then I immediately shifted my thoughts to, well, maybe I could be a filmmaker. Maybe I can make films. And then you're looking at it and you're like, oh, there are no Asian people making movies or TV shows or anything like that. You've seen David Carradine play in Kung Fu, and you're like, he's not even Asian. And then you're like, Tai Chi, Tai Chi's, not even a martial art. I don't even know why on Kung Fu. And then it shifted to animation, and I said, well, maybe I could be one of those people that make animated movies. And then when I got to art school and I was already, oh, I want to work for Dreamworks, I want to work for Pixar or Disney someday. And I took a computer animation course, and then the first class I took, I absolutely hated it. I absolutely hated it because the software that you have to work with is clearly made by some engineer, some computer engineer where they don't care about the interface for how you could use it with ease.
You would make something and say, "I want to make this ball shiny. Is there a shiny button where I can make it shiny and then maybe adjust the amount of shininess to it?" And it's like, "No, but we have the sin wave, and then you calculate the secularity between the measure of zero and one." And I'm like, "God, I hate this. And I hate engineering. And I read all those people." And so it took me 14 weeks to make one minute of film, and I was just like, there has to be a better way to tell stories. And down the hall was this children's book writing and illustrating course, and the only people in that course were me and my friend Peter Brown. We went to art school together, and we had these dreams of being children's book makers. And I remember everyone at the art school at the time, it was just sexy to be a gallery painter or an editorial artist, and then there was me and Pete, and they would just look at us and say, oh, that's adorable. They want to make books for kids.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Yeah. So cute.
Dan Santat:
It was at that point where I think I realized, oh, I don't love being an artist. I love being a storyteller, but I just happened to know how to draw. And so when I was getting into children's publishing, I really leaned into my illustrations because I knew that that was the thing that would get my foot in the door, but it just so happened to be that I met Arthur Levine at an SCBWI conference, and he saw my dummy book and my portfolio, and he gave me a two book deal right on the spot.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Oh my goodness. That is basically unheard of and unbelievable. But now, fast-forward all these years, and you have this impressive list of work under your belt. You've got Beekle, The Aquanaut, Caldecott Medall, and I don't know, with all the success, are you finding yourself being a little pickier now about some of the projects that you're taking on?
Dan Santat:
I think the best way to characterize this phase in my career is the best thing that a major literary award can do for you is buy you time. And by that I mean if you sign a book deal and you're working on a project that the publisher's getting behind, they want to make sure that it is told as best as possible. My editor doesn't give me a stamped deadline. It has to be done November 7th. The book will reveal itself when the time is right. And in the meantime, I keep myself busy because if I don't have anything else on my plate and I'm alone with my thoughts, it's a horrible nightmare. Because I do have these just whispers of self-doubt, like, "No one's ever going to hire you again. That last book? That was the end of your career." It never goes away. But also on the other side is that sometimes you'll get manuscripts for stories that you had thought about writing, but it landed on your lap and you realize, oh, you already wrote what was something I was thinking.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Was that Minh's book for you?
Dan Santat:
Yeah, with Minh's book, it was hard for me because culturally I said I struggled with writing anything about my culture. I really praise folks like Grace Lynn and Jean Yang who can just so proudly talk about their Chinese heritage.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Write quick. The book that Dan's talking about here is called Drawn Together. It's about a Thai American boy who struggles to connect with his immigrant grandfather until he discovers that they both love to draw. It's one of two books that Dan has created with author Minh Le.
Dan Santat:
I know nothing about Thai culture. And so this beautiful manuscript comes along, and the main character really is by definition me, because I couldn't speak with my grandparents. I was an artist. And Minh was just very open and free and said, "Do this book the way you feel best represents the text." There was a part of me that said, "If there's any opportunity for me to praise my heritage of being Thai, this is it." And so I'm completely thankful for a manuscript that that opens up my mind as an illustrator, because the illustrations in that book wasn't so much Dan Santat doing illustrations for a book. I had to draw in the style of those characters. So in a way, the style themselves became the characters themselves.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Absolutely.
Dan Santat:
I had to draw like a seven-year-old. I had to draw an old grandfather. And so I'm grateful for that because it really opened up my mind about how I make art.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
How you make art, and then also your relationship with your cultural heritage and your parents, which has such a strong influence on your career. And it sounds like your life generally. So as a father, how do you now think about passing on that culture? Or is that something that you've tried to do proactively?
Dan Santat:
Right. So we're adding to the pot because their mother is Jewish. You're supplementing certain things. So I'm going to Thailand with the family in April. I got invited to go speak at an international school out there, just give them a taste of Thailand, let them know where they're coming from, but I'm not really pressing it upon them to preserve any kind of cultural meaning, because I think at this point, their identities are so diverse. With me, I think there is this, I don't know if it's something that comes with age, but I think you sit there and then you reflect and say you want to know more about yourself. And I'm going to suspect that maybe everybody gets to that point in their lives where they say, "Well, where am I from?" And so I'll be there when they're ready and they're curious. In the meantime, I'm still very unfamiliar with Thai culture, but I'm growing, I'm getting better at it.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Yeah, I think all of us are always growing as parents. And then I'm also curious about the other kids in your life, which is to say your readers, all of your readers. Let's talk a little bit about school visits, if you can share a bit of your experience with those.
Dan Santat:
I've noticed that I've been doing more school visits with older classes, middle grade and high school, and I do talk about the memoir, but it almost becomes less about literature and more about... It becomes almost like a motivational speech. Where I talk about those insecurities about being a kid and going out into the world. And I relate it to the whole idea of me growing up and pursuing this profession of being a doctor despite not wanting it. And then asking those kids, you're applying to college next year, but do you really know what you want? I think I'm one of those few adults who I'm all for the gap year. I'm all for no rush into college because we live in a country where the pursuit of getting into college is the most important, thing up to the year 17, 18 years old. And the kids are so busy trying to get into college that once they get in, they haven't taken the time to think what it is that they even like in life.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Oh my God. Yeah. Do you feel like, does it res... Oh, go ahead.
Dan Santat:
No, it absolutely resonates because it is, these universities say, "Okay, well congratulations. You got into this school. What major do you want to study for the rest of your life?" And you're like, "I just got here. I have absolutely no idea."
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
I think it's more and more like that now too. Yeah.
Dan Santat:
Yeah. And so what I'm talking about to these kids is, look, as important as it is to go to college, it's even more important for you to go to college for the right reasons. And I honestly don't think that a college degree is the reason why most of us go to college. I think we go to college because we all go there to discover who we are as people. That's the one thing. I have a microbiology degree I don't use. But by the time I was done with college, I definitely knew I didn't want to be a dentist. I definitely knew I wanted to be a doctor. That's the thing that I got out of college. I actually did a commencement speech at my old alma mater, UC San Diego, and the first thing I said was, "I got a microbiology degree here, and I use it for nothing." And the whole audience, all the kids just erupted in cheers, right?
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Yeah.
Dan Santat:
And I do the whole speech. I do the whole speech, and I'm saying, are you sure that what you're doing is what you want? Do you think you want to be a doctor? And I went down. And I remember I sat right back down to the provost, and the provost, he leaned over to me and he said, "That was a great speech. But you realize there's a lot of parents out there that probably want to kill you right now."
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Yeah. But their kid could be the next Dan Santat, you never know.
Dan Santat:
Right. Right.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Has a kid ever communicated to you, or you ever had a meaningful moment with any students?
Dan Santat:
Many, many. There's something about being open and honest that kids, I think they're lacking, and I can't necessarily blame parents, but here's how it is. So I feel like a lot of parents never want to own up to the fact that they are scared in front of their kids, or maybe they have no idea what's going on or how they're doing things. Because they don't want to give that insecurity off in front of their kids because then they're worried that their kids will be like, "Oh my God, this train is off the rails because mom and dad don't have the answers." I've actually gone the opposite way with my kids, especially now that they've seen my memoir and they've read it and they said, "Dad, you got in some trouble. You're not a perfect kid." And then also, if my kids are asking for solutions, I say, "Buddy, I don't know."
I'm talking to a lot of parents and stuff like that because currently doing college admissions, my oldest is applying to college. But we talk to a lot of the parents, and a lot of the parents say, "My kid just goes into his room, closes the door, just goes on his phone talking to his friends, and I never hear from them." And the opposite is actually the case with my wife and I, where our kids tell us everything. And I think a big part of it is because we are 100% honest about things. And as a result, knowing that you can share your flaws and your insecurities with your kids, then they feel safe enough to do the same. They feel safe to reciprocate it.
And so when I go and I speak at these schools, to middle schools, to high schools, and I tell them this, it's something that they don't hear from their parents. And I think to hear it come from an adult to say, oh, I've had these same worries. And it's good, and I promise you your parents have the same worries too, but they're probably not ready to admit it. I wince at the structure of how things are set up. And I tell the kids, you may feel like you don't have any control over it, but a gap year would do just as much wonders for your soul as four years of college.
I think it's more important that you learn about yourself so that when it's time to be an adult, you can do it by your own turn.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Dan's impressive body of work spans over 60 books, and yes, he even had his own cartoon featured on Disney Channel. But while his career was sparked by his passion for drawing, that's not the legacy he hopes to leave behind.
Dan Santat:
I think by a popular standard, I am viewed as an illustrator author. I would like it to be viewed as author illustrator, if that makes any sense. I think I would like to be praised more for my writing over my illustrations. I don't take any offense, I'm very privileged, I'm very grateful for the career that I've had. But I think I would love for people to look at my body of work and say, he was a good illustrator, but he was a great writer. I think that's where I would love to be.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Or you are a great storyteller, and I think that it's like you had this amazing benefit, really, that so many writers don't have. It's like you see that movie in your head or whatever is happening in there, I am guessing.
Dan Santat:
Sure. That's definitely something about me. Yeah. No, I do. I do see the movie in my head.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
With that goal in mind, I asked Dan, what's next for him?
Dan Santat:
So my body of work, I think I'm definitely approaching an older market. I'm an older audience, maybe like seven to 12. So it hasn't been announced yet, but I just sold a six book comic series to Macmillan called, Here Comes Sashimi.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Oh, nice.
Dan Santat:
Yeah, so it's a funny. It's different. It's a very silly fun story about, I guess what we would call it like a mer-boy.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Okay.
Dan Santat:
So he's opposite of a mermaid, so human, upper part, fish blower body. So he has a fish head, but then a human body. And so he goes to this place called Barnacle Bay because he's the only type of creature that he's seen in the sea, and he's heard about this urban legend about this kind of this Loch Ness Monster beast that kind of resembles him. And so he goes there and he ends up in the public school system. He's in search of this monster that he thinks is his father. So I'm working on that.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
You must have been the best storyteller for your [inaudible 00:33:13]. Because it is off the wall. I mean off the wall. So good.
Dan Santat:
Yeah, no, it's a lot of fun. And then I did a graphic novel way back in 2011 called Sidekicks. I have signed on to do three more of those.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Oh, really? Yeah. I actually had that as a question I did not ask you today was actually about that. Yeah.
Dan Santat:
So there's a huge story arc, and you get to know all the characters and you find out why the hero and the villain are at odds.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Well, that's fun to bring that back. That's cool.
Dan Santat:
Right. Right. So I'm doing Sidekicks, I'm doing, Here Comes Sashimi. I am currently doing a picture book with Mo Willems called Lefty.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Oh, you guys are like old friends. That's nice.
Dan Santat:
Yeah, old friends. I am doing another-
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Called Lefty?
Dan Santat:
Lefty. So it's about how left-handed people were ostracized throughout history.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Are you left-handed?
Dan Santat:
I am left-handed
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Is Mo left-handed?
Dan Santat:
Mo is not left-handed, which is why he said, "Would you like to illustrate this left-handed book?" I'm currently in the works with five picture books.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Oh, wow. Just a couple of things.
Reflecting on the nostalgia of his early days, when a box filled with Marvel Comic books served as his inspiration and pseudo art teacher in his reading challenge, Profound Panels, Dan aspires to introduce others to the profound storytelling concealed within the pages of graphic novels.
Dan Santat:
I still feel like there's a horrible stigma about graphic novels. That graphic novels are not real reading. And I would love for someone to the time to read Mouse or American Born Chinese and not feel moved by those books. In the realm of graphic novels, there's so many things that you can learn a tremendous amount from that probably doesn't work as well in other mediums. I need everyone as an assignment, exercise some empathy people.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
You can find more details about Dan's Reading Challenge and all past reading challenges from authors like Kate DiCamillo, Grace Lynn and Kwame Alexander at thereadingculturepod.com.
Today's Beanstack-featured librarian is the fabulous Connie Sharpe, the librarian training and development specialist for Metro Nashville Public Schools. Connie told us about the importance of the partnership between administrators and librarians.
Connie Sharpe:
One of the things that I wish that more administrators and school personnel knew is the importance of collaborating with your librarian. So when we see schools that have a thriving culture of literacy, it's because the librarians are able to attend grade level meetings, they're able to partner with different subject areas throughout the school, and that's when we get really excited as we see that that librarian is truly being used as an instructional partner.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
This has been The Reading Culture and you've been listening to our conversation with Dan Santat. Again, I'm your host Jordan Lloyd Bookey, and currently I'm reading Everything Sad is Untrue by Daniel Nayeri, and Never Enough: The Neuroscience and Experience of Addiction by Judith Grisel.
If you enjoy today's episode, please show some love and give us a five star review. It just takes a second and really helps. To learn more about how you can help grow your community's reading culture, you can check out all of our resources at beanstack.com and remember to sign up for our newsletter at thereadingculturepod.com/newsletter for special offers and insights. This episode was produced by Jackie Lamport and Lower Street Media and script edited by Josia Lamberto-Egan.
Thanks for joining and keep reading.
It was my junk food, but also it was my in with the kids to be able to talk about pop culture, to know all the little nuances and jokes about the cultural zeitgeist of things.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Dan Santat's childhood can be described as caught between cultures. As the son of Thai immigrants, he never felt quite connected with his rural SoCal surroundings, or with other Asian immigrants, or even his own Thai background. In an attempt to find common ground, he attached himself to the pop media around him, the poppier, the better. TV and comics became his cultural Bibles, as reliable as they may or may not have been.
Dan Santat:
Oh my God, in the 1980s, everyone talks about the drugs and the cocaine and everything that was going around in Hollywood writer rooms, and it's evident.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Dan is the author Illustrator known for his titles such as his Cal Dicot winning book, The Adventures of Beekle: The Unimaginary Friend, After the Fall: How Humpty Dumpty Got Back up Again and The Aquanaut. As It Happens, just before we did this interview, Dan received a call letting him know that he had been long listed for the National Book Award for his graphic novel, A First Time for Everything.
Dan Santat:
Everyone on the East coast just sending me texts, and I woke up and they said, "Congratulations." I said, "For what?" They said, "You don't know?" And I'm like, "Why would I know? I literally opened my eyes." All that came together.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Very exciting.
In this episode, Dan talks about the freedoms and limitations of growing up in the '80s, and how they helped him discover a passion for storytelling as a means of communicating. He shares his journey of embracing art, even though his parents had different dreams for him, and how all of this ultimately led to his go-to message for student visits, don't go to college. That may be a bit out of context, but we'll elaborate.
My name is Jordan Lloyd Bookey, and this is The Reading Culture, a show where we speak with authors and illustrators about ways to build a stronger culture of reading in our communities. We dive into their personal experiences, their inspirations, and why their stories and ideas motivate kids to read more. Make sure to check us out on Instagram for giveaways @thereadingculturepod, and you can also subscribe to our newsletter at thereadingculturepod.com.
Okay, Dan, so I read that you were born in Brooklyn, but I know you grew up in Southern California, right? So let's start with you sharing a bit about your early life.
Dan Santat:
I was born in Brooklyn. My parents immigrated from Thailand in 1968, my father was a doctor and my mother was a nurse. And of course in the '70, New York was pretty rough. They lived there with a collective of other Thai expats that just kind of came from the country, came to America, and then they all slowly had this huge migration, this mass migration off into Southern California. I'd been living in Ventura County ever since I was three years old, so pretty much most of my life was in very rural, White, conservative, Christian community. I was just one of a handful of Asian kids in town, and then on top of that, you would be the one kid from Thailand, and no one knew where that was, so I was pretty much dropped into a place, and I was a complete alien.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Yeah, they're like, "We're used to Chinese," or whatever. Is that The idea is that kids didn't know anything about?
Dan Santat:
I mean, back in the day it was you're either Chinese or Japanese or maybe Vietnamese, but no one knew anything else beyond those two. And then when you would say you were from Thailand, the assumption was Taiwan.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Oh, wow.
Dan Santat:
And then in terms of cultural integration, we would hang out with other Asian people. We would be hanging out at Chinese New Year's or Japanese festivals, and I would just be the Asian kid from Thailand that would hang around other Chinese kids and say, "I have no idea what any of you were saying. I don't really know what this ceremony's about, but thanks for having me."
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Yeah. What about your parents? I guess they were in the same boat as you, right? I mean, how did your parents manage that?
Dan Santat:
They shook off the whole Thai identity pretty quickly, because they thought it was important to assimilate as well. They never taught me Thai because they wanted me to learn English. And I think back in the day, the philosophy early on was if you teach a foreign language and then you teach English, you're going to have an accent. My father was just fascinated. One of the reasons why he came to America was because he was a huge fan of American pop culture. His favorite movie was Shane. He loved listening to Paul Anka and Elvis and The Beatles and things like that, so he was dying to come to this country, because he was dirt poor. He was dirt poor in Thailand. There was something about him that he was running away from something too.
My mother, on the other hand, she came to America to be with my dad. And what I had learned was that it wasn't their intention to stay here permanently. They wanted to go back to Thailand and practice medicine, but my dad came out here just for a residency, just to get a taste of America.
Now, the loaded issues behind that was that my father in Thailand, back in the day, he got into med school. And in Thailand, they were in need of doctors, and so they were offering practically free educations for doctors in medical school. The government paid for their education. And so my dad goes out to do a residency with every intention of coming back, but the Thai government took an offense and said, "Oh, you're just like all those others. You wanted to go out there and make your fortune with the education that we gave you. You can go stay there. We don't need you. There's plenty of other doctors that we could produce in this country without you." And we stayed.
So my mom was very close to her family, and so there was something very crushing about the realization that she would have to stay, and that wasn't revealed to me until maybe three years ago.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Wow.
Dan Santat:
I never knew that. Yeah.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Oh my God. That's a lot of pressure on your family for that move to pay off. How do you think that impacted their expectations of you then?
Dan Santat:
Yeah, it was this thing growing up where they were insistent that I grew up and be a doctor and I go off to a four-year college. And I'm getting a microbiology degree to be a dentist, and I don't even want to be a dentist. It felt like I was doing something for these two people that I didn't even want.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Yeah, unfortunately, I don't know if it's that uncommon of a story, honestly. But it does make me think about your recent memoir and in that you talk a lot about, or write a lot about hiding your love of drawing from other kids, and given what you're saying, I wonder if you also hid it from your parents.
Dan Santat:
There was a thing about my mom, so I think part of it was that she knew, she knew I love to draw, so she was pretty cool with it. She even let me enter artwork in the county fair.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Oh, how'd you do?
Dan Santat:
I have a whole tub of ribbons. And in fact, -one year, one year I won what was known as a sweepstakes and I got this nice little plaque. And so I guess what happens is if you are of a certain age group, I guess nine to 12, and you win the most ribbons for that category, you win the sweepstakes plaque. I remember my mom and I were like, oh my gosh, you won so many ribbons. You actually got a bigger award. This is pretty cool. My dad didn't even show up to the award ceremony. It was in complete like, "No, no, no. You're feeding the wrong thoughts in his head." I think my mom feeling so guilty that maybe I was starved of a proper childhood because of her lupus, and I didn't get to go out and hang out with the kids like usual. It was her way of making amends. You love to draw, you have to stay at home, draw as much as you want, because I feel bad that you have to stay here because I'm sick.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Did you like to read as a kid? Were you a reader?
Dan Santat:
I was not. So the thing about it was that my parents came from Thailand, and so they weren't familiar with any of the Western classics, so they didn't really know what to hand me other than these utility books. Again, just driven to being a doctor. You should read a science book, you should read a math book. And it was just like-
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Must have hated it.
Dan Santat:
Reading sucks. I hate reading so much. This is the worst.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Were they get some only nonfiction in this house? That's what we're.
Dan Santat:
Kind of, yeah, pretty much. But then also, I couldn't relate to any of the books like, "Oh, here's Red Badge of Courage." I don't care.
"Oh, this was back in the colonial days." I know none of this. I can't relate to this at all. And it wasn't until I had a paper route, I was 12 years old, I was inheriting a paper route from another kid in the neighborhood, and while he was showing me the ropes, he shows me this big chest, this wooden chest that he had in his room, and it was filled with all the Marvel Comics at that time. And he's telling me the storyline of Thor and how it ties into the Hulk and how it ties into the X-Men, and my mind is blown, and I'm just like, "Oh my gosh, this is amazing. This is a soap opera for me, and I need to know what happens to these characters every month." And it was comic books that really got me into it.
And I think what lent it even further was that because I love to draw, you would see these amazing drawings of these superheroes and you're thinking, "I just want to know how they do this. How do they draw these superheroes so accurately with their muscles and their knuckles on their hands?" And so you're just copying the pictures because you're trying to learn, but you can't take, our classes can't-
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
There's no YouTube tutorials when you're-
Dan Santat:
Right. And so you're just clinging onto anything you can. Maybe if I draw like that enough, I'll become that. And you're just copying pictures. And that was my education. Part of the insecurity about people not wanting to share my art, is that kids can often see the one little flaw and then they will lean into that. "Why is his leg so long?" And it being my precious hobby that I held so dear, it was like, I think I was getting enough criticism from my parents. I didn't want to hear any more criticism from other friends.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Because you like comics? Were you into movies and Marvel?
Dan Santat:
Oh my gosh, I was such a TV junkie. Back in the day, they would say like, oh two hours of TV a week. I was ingesting five to six hours of TV a day. It was my junk food. But also it was my in with the kids, to be able to talk about pop culture, to know all the little nuances and jokes about the cultural zeitgeist of things. And so, oh my God, in the 1980s, everyone talks about the drugs and the cocaine and everything that was going around in Hollywood rider rooms, and it's evident. You're like, oh, here's a show about a talking crime fighting car. Okay. Here's a one about a crime fighting motorcycle. Here's too about crime fighting helicopters. And then you had the A-Team, and then of course, oh my gosh, HBO. You couldn't catch the movie in the theater? It'll be on HBO in five, six months. And then you had the sleepovers where you sneak down to the TV at 1:00 AM.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Those rated movies.
Dan Santat:
You watch the movie you're not supposed to watch.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. No one knows. There's no history, no history of it to look up.
Dan Santat:
I've watched so many movies. I've watched so many things that I should not have watched when I was a kid, and now I make books for your kids. So I think I came out okay. The one book that I like to bring up to people that is I think is quite scarring, but you couldn't pull that out of the hands of any kid. In second grade, it was Flowers in the Attic.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Oh man, how are we allowed to read? Why was that?
Dan Santat:
How are we allowed to read Flowers in the Attic?
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
I still have a visceral reaction when I think about that. Just what a story. I guess that was some of the early YA.
Dan Santat:
Yeah. And now everyone's gone crazy. It's funny because we're these Gen X kids that grew up having the freedom go out, do whatever, read whatever, and now we're just like, "Don't touch that one, it has rainbows in it." How did we end up these idiots that are just so overly protective when the world was handed us this platter? Go, go get in trouble, go break stuff. And now we're like, don't touch anything. It'll kill you.
For the best possible state of your soul as I say to you, wealth does not bring about excellence, but excellence makes wealth and everything else good for men, both individually and collectively.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
That quote comes from The Trial and Death of Socrates. The book contains a series of collected dialogues in which Plato analyzes, you guessed it, the trial sentencing and eventual execution of Socrates, as well as his philosophical ideas and the events surrounding his death. The book made it into Dan's life as required reading for his college humanities class. This passage caught Dan at a crucial point. Following the expectations of his parents, he had been on the path to becoming a doctor, but it was that powerful sentence that gave him a fresh perspective.
Dan Santat:
I think the reason why it was so moving to me was because my entire life, my father always told me that wealth would bring me happiness. And I think a lot of this was him just constantly deterring me from trying to be an artist. He would just say, "What are you talking about? Why would you want to be an artist? Go be a doctor and make money, and then that money will make you so happy." It was contradictory to what my father said about his life philosophy. And so I remember reading that book, it was over Thanksgiving break, so I was reading it at home. And I looked around the house and my dad just had all these gadgets and things that he would play with for a little bit, and he would just throw it off to the side. It was that instant gratification of buying the thing, and then just moving on to the next thing. And I looked at it and I looked at the whole room as like, this is just a whole room of junk. He has no connection to any of these things. And it made me stop and think, if wealth isn't the answer, then what is it that I seek? Because I already know I don't want to be a doctor. And if wealth isn't the answer to my happiness, then maybe I'm making a terrible mistake in this pursuit of becoming a doctor.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
But this shift in perspective didn't seal the deal for his transition away from medicine. Plato had a little help from Dan's college roommates.
Dan Santat:
The process of my college roommates telling me not to be a dentist was a long, arduous process because I just kept regurgitating what my parents told me, and I would say to him like, "Oh, no, art is a hobby. That'll never be a thing." And then they would say to me, "Yeah, but it's clearly something that you could do all day and you like to do it." I had made a portfolio behind my parents' back, and I applied to art schools just because my roommate said, "Let's just see if you can get in. Aren't you curious if you're good enough just to get in?" And so I put together a portfolio. I went online and this thing called the internet, which was still pretty new at the time. I got into all these art schools. And then there was this feeling of, okay, I'm hooked. I think I want to do this.
But the one thing that I think really tipped it over the edge from my parents, it was around the time when The Lion King was really blowing up, and you find out that some of that animation was done with computers and all these articles are out saying, "You could make a lot of money being an animator in this industry." And I remember just cutting out all these articles and then showing my parents, I got into art school and I think this might be a valid thing. It really took a lot of the concern away from my father especially. It was funny because when I told my mom, my mom was like, "Oh, I knew this was going to happen." And so once I got into art school and I accepted and my parents accepted it, I have to really hand it to my parents because they would tell all their friends like, "Oh, Dan's going to art school." And all their friends said, "Why are you letting him throw his life away like that?"
And honestly, they went up to bat for me. They said, "Oh, no, no, you'll see. He'll show you. He'll do something great one day." And then I remember when I finally got my first book deal, it was with Arthur Levine, and my parents were just going back to these parties like, "Oh, yeah, that book, Harry Potter? The editor is working on our son's first book." And then you had this cartoon show, and it was just like, "Oh, yeah, you ever heard of Disney Channel? You ever heard of Disney? Yeah. My son has a cartoon show with them now."
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
If he's going to take this path, then we are going to let people know.
Dan Santat:
Right. And it's like, "Oh, what's your son? Oh, he's a neurosurgeon? That's stupid. My son has a cartoon show on Disney Channel." So it went both ways and it paid off in spades to them, right?
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Right. But once you got there. And then did you always know you wanted to be, because you were really into comics, did you know, I want to tell stories for kids? Because interesting because an artist and illustrator, but you are now over the years, have really become more and more and more of a storyteller.
Dan Santat:
Here's the awful thing, is that when I was a kid, I loved movies. I loved TV, and I remember thinking I wanted to be an actor. But then I would watch movies, I would watch TV, and the only Asian people I saw in movies were the ones that were getting beaten up by Jackie Chan or Steven Segal or Van Dam. And there were always these street thugs and things like that, or drug dealers in Chinatown or whatever. But also, it was this whole idea of just like, oh, you want to be an Asian movie star? You have to know kung fu. You have to know karate or something like that. And I remember just, oh God, at such a ridiculously young age realizing, oh, I can never be that.
But there was a love that I had definitely for storytelling. Because then I immediately shifted my thoughts to, well, maybe I could be a filmmaker. Maybe I can make films. And then you're looking at it and you're like, oh, there are no Asian people making movies or TV shows or anything like that. You've seen David Carradine play in Kung Fu, and you're like, he's not even Asian. And then you're like, Tai Chi, Tai Chi's, not even a martial art. I don't even know why on Kung Fu. And then it shifted to animation, and I said, well, maybe I could be one of those people that make animated movies. And then when I got to art school and I was already, oh, I want to work for Dreamworks, I want to work for Pixar or Disney someday. And I took a computer animation course, and then the first class I took, I absolutely hated it. I absolutely hated it because the software that you have to work with is clearly made by some engineer, some computer engineer where they don't care about the interface for how you could use it with ease.
You would make something and say, "I want to make this ball shiny. Is there a shiny button where I can make it shiny and then maybe adjust the amount of shininess to it?" And it's like, "No, but we have the sin wave, and then you calculate the secularity between the measure of zero and one." And I'm like, "God, I hate this. And I hate engineering. And I read all those people." And so it took me 14 weeks to make one minute of film, and I was just like, there has to be a better way to tell stories. And down the hall was this children's book writing and illustrating course, and the only people in that course were me and my friend Peter Brown. We went to art school together, and we had these dreams of being children's book makers. And I remember everyone at the art school at the time, it was just sexy to be a gallery painter or an editorial artist, and then there was me and Pete, and they would just look at us and say, oh, that's adorable. They want to make books for kids.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Yeah. So cute.
Dan Santat:
It was at that point where I think I realized, oh, I don't love being an artist. I love being a storyteller, but I just happened to know how to draw. And so when I was getting into children's publishing, I really leaned into my illustrations because I knew that that was the thing that would get my foot in the door, but it just so happened to be that I met Arthur Levine at an SCBWI conference, and he saw my dummy book and my portfolio, and he gave me a two book deal right on the spot.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Oh my goodness. That is basically unheard of and unbelievable. But now, fast-forward all these years, and you have this impressive list of work under your belt. You've got Beekle, The Aquanaut, Caldecott Medall, and I don't know, with all the success, are you finding yourself being a little pickier now about some of the projects that you're taking on?
Dan Santat:
I think the best way to characterize this phase in my career is the best thing that a major literary award can do for you is buy you time. And by that I mean if you sign a book deal and you're working on a project that the publisher's getting behind, they want to make sure that it is told as best as possible. My editor doesn't give me a stamped deadline. It has to be done November 7th. The book will reveal itself when the time is right. And in the meantime, I keep myself busy because if I don't have anything else on my plate and I'm alone with my thoughts, it's a horrible nightmare. Because I do have these just whispers of self-doubt, like, "No one's ever going to hire you again. That last book? That was the end of your career." It never goes away. But also on the other side is that sometimes you'll get manuscripts for stories that you had thought about writing, but it landed on your lap and you realize, oh, you already wrote what was something I was thinking.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Was that Minh's book for you?
Dan Santat:
Yeah, with Minh's book, it was hard for me because culturally I said I struggled with writing anything about my culture. I really praise folks like Grace Lynn and Jean Yang who can just so proudly talk about their Chinese heritage.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Write quick. The book that Dan's talking about here is called Drawn Together. It's about a Thai American boy who struggles to connect with his immigrant grandfather until he discovers that they both love to draw. It's one of two books that Dan has created with author Minh Le.
Dan Santat:
I know nothing about Thai culture. And so this beautiful manuscript comes along, and the main character really is by definition me, because I couldn't speak with my grandparents. I was an artist. And Minh was just very open and free and said, "Do this book the way you feel best represents the text." There was a part of me that said, "If there's any opportunity for me to praise my heritage of being Thai, this is it." And so I'm completely thankful for a manuscript that that opens up my mind as an illustrator, because the illustrations in that book wasn't so much Dan Santat doing illustrations for a book. I had to draw in the style of those characters. So in a way, the style themselves became the characters themselves.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Absolutely.
Dan Santat:
I had to draw like a seven-year-old. I had to draw an old grandfather. And so I'm grateful for that because it really opened up my mind about how I make art.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
How you make art, and then also your relationship with your cultural heritage and your parents, which has such a strong influence on your career. And it sounds like your life generally. So as a father, how do you now think about passing on that culture? Or is that something that you've tried to do proactively?
Dan Santat:
Right. So we're adding to the pot because their mother is Jewish. You're supplementing certain things. So I'm going to Thailand with the family in April. I got invited to go speak at an international school out there, just give them a taste of Thailand, let them know where they're coming from, but I'm not really pressing it upon them to preserve any kind of cultural meaning, because I think at this point, their identities are so diverse. With me, I think there is this, I don't know if it's something that comes with age, but I think you sit there and then you reflect and say you want to know more about yourself. And I'm going to suspect that maybe everybody gets to that point in their lives where they say, "Well, where am I from?" And so I'll be there when they're ready and they're curious. In the meantime, I'm still very unfamiliar with Thai culture, but I'm growing, I'm getting better at it.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Yeah, I think all of us are always growing as parents. And then I'm also curious about the other kids in your life, which is to say your readers, all of your readers. Let's talk a little bit about school visits, if you can share a bit of your experience with those.
Dan Santat:
I've noticed that I've been doing more school visits with older classes, middle grade and high school, and I do talk about the memoir, but it almost becomes less about literature and more about... It becomes almost like a motivational speech. Where I talk about those insecurities about being a kid and going out into the world. And I relate it to the whole idea of me growing up and pursuing this profession of being a doctor despite not wanting it. And then asking those kids, you're applying to college next year, but do you really know what you want? I think I'm one of those few adults who I'm all for the gap year. I'm all for no rush into college because we live in a country where the pursuit of getting into college is the most important, thing up to the year 17, 18 years old. And the kids are so busy trying to get into college that once they get in, they haven't taken the time to think what it is that they even like in life.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Oh my God. Yeah. Do you feel like, does it res... Oh, go ahead.
Dan Santat:
No, it absolutely resonates because it is, these universities say, "Okay, well congratulations. You got into this school. What major do you want to study for the rest of your life?" And you're like, "I just got here. I have absolutely no idea."
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
I think it's more and more like that now too. Yeah.
Dan Santat:
Yeah. And so what I'm talking about to these kids is, look, as important as it is to go to college, it's even more important for you to go to college for the right reasons. And I honestly don't think that a college degree is the reason why most of us go to college. I think we go to college because we all go there to discover who we are as people. That's the one thing. I have a microbiology degree I don't use. But by the time I was done with college, I definitely knew I didn't want to be a dentist. I definitely knew I wanted to be a doctor. That's the thing that I got out of college. I actually did a commencement speech at my old alma mater, UC San Diego, and the first thing I said was, "I got a microbiology degree here, and I use it for nothing." And the whole audience, all the kids just erupted in cheers, right?
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Yeah.
Dan Santat:
And I do the whole speech. I do the whole speech, and I'm saying, are you sure that what you're doing is what you want? Do you think you want to be a doctor? And I went down. And I remember I sat right back down to the provost, and the provost, he leaned over to me and he said, "That was a great speech. But you realize there's a lot of parents out there that probably want to kill you right now."
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Yeah. But their kid could be the next Dan Santat, you never know.
Dan Santat:
Right. Right.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Has a kid ever communicated to you, or you ever had a meaningful moment with any students?
Dan Santat:
Many, many. There's something about being open and honest that kids, I think they're lacking, and I can't necessarily blame parents, but here's how it is. So I feel like a lot of parents never want to own up to the fact that they are scared in front of their kids, or maybe they have no idea what's going on or how they're doing things. Because they don't want to give that insecurity off in front of their kids because then they're worried that their kids will be like, "Oh my God, this train is off the rails because mom and dad don't have the answers." I've actually gone the opposite way with my kids, especially now that they've seen my memoir and they've read it and they said, "Dad, you got in some trouble. You're not a perfect kid." And then also, if my kids are asking for solutions, I say, "Buddy, I don't know."
I'm talking to a lot of parents and stuff like that because currently doing college admissions, my oldest is applying to college. But we talk to a lot of the parents, and a lot of the parents say, "My kid just goes into his room, closes the door, just goes on his phone talking to his friends, and I never hear from them." And the opposite is actually the case with my wife and I, where our kids tell us everything. And I think a big part of it is because we are 100% honest about things. And as a result, knowing that you can share your flaws and your insecurities with your kids, then they feel safe enough to do the same. They feel safe to reciprocate it.
And so when I go and I speak at these schools, to middle schools, to high schools, and I tell them this, it's something that they don't hear from their parents. And I think to hear it come from an adult to say, oh, I've had these same worries. And it's good, and I promise you your parents have the same worries too, but they're probably not ready to admit it. I wince at the structure of how things are set up. And I tell the kids, you may feel like you don't have any control over it, but a gap year would do just as much wonders for your soul as four years of college.
I think it's more important that you learn about yourself so that when it's time to be an adult, you can do it by your own turn.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Dan's impressive body of work spans over 60 books, and yes, he even had his own cartoon featured on Disney Channel. But while his career was sparked by his passion for drawing, that's not the legacy he hopes to leave behind.
Dan Santat:
I think by a popular standard, I am viewed as an illustrator author. I would like it to be viewed as author illustrator, if that makes any sense. I think I would like to be praised more for my writing over my illustrations. I don't take any offense, I'm very privileged, I'm very grateful for the career that I've had. But I think I would love for people to look at my body of work and say, he was a good illustrator, but he was a great writer. I think that's where I would love to be.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Or you are a great storyteller, and I think that it's like you had this amazing benefit, really, that so many writers don't have. It's like you see that movie in your head or whatever is happening in there, I am guessing.
Dan Santat:
Sure. That's definitely something about me. Yeah. No, I do. I do see the movie in my head.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
With that goal in mind, I asked Dan, what's next for him?
Dan Santat:
So my body of work, I think I'm definitely approaching an older market. I'm an older audience, maybe like seven to 12. So it hasn't been announced yet, but I just sold a six book comic series to Macmillan called, Here Comes Sashimi.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Oh, nice.
Dan Santat:
Yeah, so it's a funny. It's different. It's a very silly fun story about, I guess what we would call it like a mer-boy.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Okay.
Dan Santat:
So he's opposite of a mermaid, so human, upper part, fish blower body. So he has a fish head, but then a human body. And so he goes to this place called Barnacle Bay because he's the only type of creature that he's seen in the sea, and he's heard about this urban legend about this kind of this Loch Ness Monster beast that kind of resembles him. And so he goes there and he ends up in the public school system. He's in search of this monster that he thinks is his father. So I'm working on that.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
You must have been the best storyteller for your [inaudible 00:33:13]. Because it is off the wall. I mean off the wall. So good.
Dan Santat:
Yeah, no, it's a lot of fun. And then I did a graphic novel way back in 2011 called Sidekicks. I have signed on to do three more of those.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Oh, really? Yeah. I actually had that as a question I did not ask you today was actually about that. Yeah.
Dan Santat:
So there's a huge story arc, and you get to know all the characters and you find out why the hero and the villain are at odds.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Well, that's fun to bring that back. That's cool.
Dan Santat:
Right. Right. So I'm doing Sidekicks, I'm doing, Here Comes Sashimi. I am currently doing a picture book with Mo Willems called Lefty.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Oh, you guys are like old friends. That's nice.
Dan Santat:
Yeah, old friends. I am doing another-
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Called Lefty?
Dan Santat:
Lefty. So it's about how left-handed people were ostracized throughout history.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Are you left-handed?
Dan Santat:
I am left-handed
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Is Mo left-handed?
Dan Santat:
Mo is not left-handed, which is why he said, "Would you like to illustrate this left-handed book?" I'm currently in the works with five picture books.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
Oh, wow. Just a couple of things.
Reflecting on the nostalgia of his early days, when a box filled with Marvel Comic books served as his inspiration and pseudo art teacher in his reading challenge, Profound Panels, Dan aspires to introduce others to the profound storytelling concealed within the pages of graphic novels.
Dan Santat:
I still feel like there's a horrible stigma about graphic novels. That graphic novels are not real reading. And I would love for someone to the time to read Mouse or American Born Chinese and not feel moved by those books. In the realm of graphic novels, there's so many things that you can learn a tremendous amount from that probably doesn't work as well in other mediums. I need everyone as an assignment, exercise some empathy people.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
You can find more details about Dan's Reading Challenge and all past reading challenges from authors like Kate DiCamillo, Grace Lynn and Kwame Alexander at thereadingculturepod.com.
Today's Beanstack-featured librarian is the fabulous Connie Sharpe, the librarian training and development specialist for Metro Nashville Public Schools. Connie told us about the importance of the partnership between administrators and librarians.
Connie Sharpe:
One of the things that I wish that more administrators and school personnel knew is the importance of collaborating with your librarian. So when we see schools that have a thriving culture of literacy, it's because the librarians are able to attend grade level meetings, they're able to partner with different subject areas throughout the school, and that's when we get really excited as we see that that librarian is truly being used as an instructional partner.
Jordan Lloyd Bookey:
This has been The Reading Culture and you've been listening to our conversation with Dan Santat. Again, I'm your host Jordan Lloyd Bookey, and currently I'm reading Everything Sad is Untrue by Daniel Nayeri, and Never Enough: The Neuroscience and Experience of Addiction by Judith Grisel.
If you enjoy today's episode, please show some love and give us a five star review. It just takes a second and really helps. To learn more about how you can help grow your community's reading culture, you can check out all of our resources at beanstack.com and remember to sign up for our newsletter at thereadingculturepod.com/newsletter for special offers and insights. This episode was produced by Jackie Lamport and Lower Street Media and script edited by Josia Lamberto-Egan.
Thanks for joining and keep reading.