Soman Chainani

Soman Chainani: I tell kids books are not there to torment you. You go to the library, you give it 10 pages. That's it. The author has to get you in the first ten pages. If they do not, they fail.

Because a book is like a lawnmower, like you pull it and like either it starts or it doesn't start.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Reading isn't supposed to feel like a chore, but for a lot of kids, that's exactly what it becomes. Something assigned, something policed, something that drains the joy out of stories. Soman Shanani doesn't think it has to be that way. He believes the only thing that really matters is that kids want to keep reading.

Soman Chainani: I think it's important for us to give them stuff at their level that actually satisfies the itches and urges and thoughts and secrets and fantasies and desires they have. Every time you find a book that does it for you, it really is like falling in love all over again, you know. And so enjoy that feeling and nurture it. But first, you have to help kids fall in love.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Soman Chunani is a New York Times bestselling author whose School for Good and Evil series has sold more than 3,000,000 copies, been translated into over 30 languages, and was adapted into a Netflix film. He's also the author of Beasts and Beauty, Dangerous Tales, and of Coven. All of his stories blend fantasy, humor, and big messy questions about what it means to be good. Mission is simple, to make reading feel irresistible. In this episode, Sowman shares the books that first thrilled him as a kid and how they shaped his belief that stories should be bold, even a little dangerous.

He unpacks his complicated relationship with fairy tales and how we can meet kids where they really are and not where we think they should be. He also explains why stirring up a little controversy doesn't scare him and that if it gets people talking, it would only help fulfill his childhood dream of being Madonna. And finally, is your young daughter checking out hardcore porn disguised as a cute rom com bestseller? Honestly, she might be, and Solman's got more on that later in the episode. My name is Jordan Lloyd Bookie, and this is the reading culture, a show where we speak with diverse authors about ways to build a stronger culture of reading in our communities.

We dive deep into their personal experiences and inspirations. Our show is made possible by Beadstack, the leading solution for motivating students to read more. Learn more at Beadstack.com, and make sure to check us out on Instagram at the reading culture pod and subscribe to our newsletter for bonus content at the readingculturepod.com/newsletter. Alright. On to the show.

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Sohman, let's get started. First off, you grew up in Florida in Key Biscayne. Is that right?

Soman Chainani: Key Biscayne.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Where I've been Really? I met Bud Collins and Key Biscayne.

Soman Chainani: Oh my god. I love Bud. Bud Collins, like, was a legend. Oh my goodness.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: I played tennis as well when I was younger. If I had dad, we would go to, like, South Florida.

Soman Chainani: Okay. Okay.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: My dad and I went to that. But I forget what the tournament is. It's there.

Soman Chainani: Yeah. It had many names over the years. Yeah. It was just to the players who was known as Cubist game. Yeah.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: And your family immigrated to Florida. Right?

Soman Chainani: My dad was. My grandparents were. My dad was. And then my mom is Indian, but she was born in New York.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Uh-huh.

Soman Chainani: My grandfather wanted to go into real estate, and Florida kinda had the best opportunities. So he moved to I think he moved originally to Ocala, Florida, where they were the first Indians from India that anyone in Florida had ever seen. In fact, their streets are named after them and everything.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Shut up. Really?

Soman Chainani: Because no one had ever seen

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: How bold.

Soman Chainani: Indians. Like, they had seen black. They had seen white.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: But they just felt compelled even as new immigrants to this country to move.

Soman Chainani: I think he just saw opportunity or he had heard tips and stuff, and he had one accent. So, normally, you'd be discriminated against. Right? You come with a new skin color, new culture, and and it's better than America. Oh my god.

Instantly. But the one thing he had that was an advantage is he had my grandmother, his wife, who was the most glamorous, like, gorgeous woman in the world. So they met her and thought she was, like, a princess. Yeah. Everyone was inviting her to her things.

And what he did when he first moved to Florida and first moved to town is the first thing he did when he got there is he threw a party, and he invited everybody. Like, the mayor, he invited whatever, the representative, whatever, everything. And he was so bold in throwing this party that everyone just assumed. And having seen his wife, they assumed that he must be royalty. And so that's how it started.

And then, eventually, they went to Gibascaine and did real estate down there. So just, you know again, storytelling. Right? The story of he had no money, nothing going on, but he had a beautiful wife who convinced everyone otherwise.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: What an interesting I think it that's like it's an atypical immigrant story.

Soman Chainani: Oh, totally. Completely atypical, and also she became the big influence in my life. Mhmm. I wrote a story in this book called Flying Lessons about her. So my grandmother, you know, it wasn't just her glamour then.

It was she stayed glamorous forever. And she and I had the same birthday, and we were actually quite similar. And so I feel like she's in every one of my books somewhere because she was so amazing. The first line of flying lessons is it's a short story in this collection, and it's, you know, Nani wears a fur coat to the beach, which she did when she took me to Spain. Uh-huh.

And the stories about how she took me to Spain, left me on a on a nude beach in Spain at 10 years old, and then pranced off in high heels and a fur coat to go shopping and get her hair done. She was gonna leave me for three hours. I remember calling her out and being like and this isn't the story too. Was like, grandma. And she turns around.

She's like, what? You know, clearly annoyed that I'm resisting her plan. And I was like, everybody on this beach is naked. And she I don't think she knew. I don't think she had paid attention.

And then she was caught, and she realized, like, her whole day was about to be screwed. So I remember she, like, had these giant sunglasses on. She lowered them, and she looked around, and literally, everybody's naked. And then she just she's like, I don't see anything and left. And so that was one of many stories.

I mean, so many. Phoebe, my editor for Young World and the very first school for Good and Evil, has been, for the last ten years being like, when are you doing the grandmother book? You know? At some definitely at some point.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Yeah. Exactly. It sounds like that's in you somewhere. Yeah. In many ways, Solman's family story didn't follow the typical immigrant script.

On the other hand, in some ways, he fit the stereotype perfectly. He was a high achiever in school, played competitive tennis, and excelled in all the ways that made adults nod with approval.

Soman Chainani: The thing was, like, I didn't fit in into the culture I was in. It was Miami. It was party culture. Everyone was

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Mhmm.

Soman Chainani: The school I went to was pretty much all white. And so I didn't feel like I fit in, so I had to find those things where I felt safe and then try to excel at them so much that it would make me feel like I had worth in the world to overcome that absolute feeling of, like, not fitting in anywhere. So that's why, like, I worked so hard at school, and that's why the tennis court was so safe for me. But I was still, like, I I don't know. I never felt, like, comfortable.

You know? If I was good at stuff, it was within the boundaries of safe places for me, but I don't think I ever felt, like, at home in my own skin until much later in life. I always think that anyone who grew up gay pre

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Yeah.

Soman Chainani: Like, five years ago

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Basically.

Soman Chainani: Comes with some extra layer of fear slash self consciousness slash

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Yeah.

Soman Chainani: That anyone who claims they're, like, a fully realized, self adjusted, % healed gay or lesbian person, I don't feel like that's possible given what we grew up with. There's always stuff that you have to be working on.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Yeah. These are such good points. It all makes sense. And I guess that in, like, Key Biscayne or Miami, at that time, was not a perfect fit for you in those years. Yeah?

Soman Chainani: I found Miami such a deeply unintellectual place because I read books. I cared about homework. Like, Miami just was not a town for reading and, you know, deep thought, at least growing up. But, you know, my family just maybe it was a prototypical, you know, Indian, Asian family. We were expected to entertain ourselves with books all the time.

It was just part of life. What I'm really grateful for is my parents didn't police what we read at all. Like, it was very much like, take you to the bookstore, whatever you wanna get. There was no suggestions. There was no denials.

So I think I just learned to just go entirely based on taste. I never had this feeling of judgment. Like, this is what my parents consider a good book, or this is what teachers consider a good book. It was like, what do I like? Because no one interfered with that.

And I think that was was very lucky.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: For better or for worse. They weren't like, good. It's a chapter book or good. It's this. It's good.

They just wanted you to read.

Soman Chainani: They just did not care. And it was a different era. You didn't have You. You didn't have Yeah. You know, a lot of stuff.

But I think it's what allowed me then to become a better and better reader because I was starting to want stuff that was more advanced. I was secretly craving just, like, kind of the messy stuff. You know?

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Yeah.

Soman Chainani: By eleven, I was reading Anne Rice. And I mean

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Like, with a vampire?

Soman Chainani: Oh, interview with a vampire was, like, my awakening, I think.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Uh-huh.

Soman Chainani: That was the first time I had read a book.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: When you were 11?

Soman Chainani: When I was 11.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Amazing.

Soman Chainani: I remember my mom coming and read I was reading some of Anne Rice's really intense stuff when I was told in 13. Yes. And she'd come in, and I would just see her look at me and be like

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: That's some sexy writing for 11 year old.

Soman Chainani: She would just be like, what are you reading? And I'm just like, it's fine. It's fine. And I would just see her leave. Like, if it was a movie, she would have intervened.

I think with books, it was this feeling of they're reading. They're in their room. He's enjoying himself. Like, just, like, you know, leave them alone. Yeah.

But I think what I came to associate reading with was something about her language specifically that was so sensual and tactile Mhmm. Where you felt like you were so immersed. And I think that became my thing I was looking for. Like, could it transport me that fully?

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Yeah.

Soman Chainani: And so I think she was really the start. I was also reading a lot of Michael Crichton at the same time, you know, because

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Those are also, like, fully transporting you to different places. Yeah.

Soman Chainani: Yeah. And just good hooks. And I was always looking for the best story or something that was just, like, kind of boundary pushing

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Mhmm.

Soman Chainani: Where I was always like, woah. So the Anne Rice, Michael Crankton, I was reading a lot of thrillers. I often would just I think this is the advantage of being a younger brother is seeing kind of what my older brother was reading.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Mhmm.

Soman Chainani: And then, you know, sort of picking up on whatever I I saw of his that looked good.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: You're the middle of three brothers. Is that right?

Soman Chainani: Middle of three.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Okay. That middle child.

Soman Chainani: %. You can always speak through and and do everything. You know? And it's funny because, like, now when I'm writing, you can't change who you are as a writer. It just is baked into your DNA.

And I grew up obsessed with both Madonna and and Rice at the same time, and I feel like they were quite similar and that they were always trying to, like, find the line of, like, what was popular, commercial, sexy, interesting, and also got to our deeper anxieties and taboos and things like that.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Yeah. The taboos.

Soman Chainani: And I think deep down, I always thought, to me, that is most useful in your life between the ages of, like, 11 and 14 to have that that kind of moment, that tension, you know, whether it was with Madonna in music, whether was Anne Rice and books. And so I think when I became a writer, I remember, you know, telling my agent being like, I kinda wanna be the Madonna of middle grade.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: You are kinda the Madonna of middle grade.

Soman Chainani: Come in and kind of break all the rules and cause problems and create the good kind of trouble. And, yeah, I'm sure, you know, teachers and librarians will, at first, be taken aback, but eventually, you know, we'll win them over. In the center of the room, clamped to an upright easel, stood the full length portrait of a young man of extraordinary personal beauty. And in front of it, some little distance away, was sitting the artist himself, Basil Hawward, whose sudden disappearance some years ago caused, at the time, such public excitement and gave rise to so many strange conjectures. As the painter looked at the gracious and calmly form he had so skillfully mirrored in his art, a smile of pleasure passed across his face and seemed to linger there.

But he suddenly started up and closing his eyes, placed his fingers upon the lids as though he had sought him prison within his brain some curious dream from which he feared he might awake. It's your best work, Basil, the best thing you have ever done, said lord Henry languidly. You must certainly send it next year to the Grosvenor. The academy is too large and too vulgar. Whenever I have gone there, there have been either so many people that I have not been able to see the pictures, which was dreadful, or so many pictures that I have not been able to see the people, which was worse.

The Grosvenor is really the only place. I don't think that shall send it anywhere, he answered, tossing his head back in that odd way that used to make his friends laugh at him at Oxford. No. I won't send it anywhere. Lord Henry elevated his eyebrows and looked at him in amazement through the thin blue wreaths of smoke that curled up in such fanciful whorls from his heavy opium tainted cigarette.

Not send it anywhere. My dear fellow, why? Have you any reason? What odd chaps you painters are? You do anything in the world to gain a reputation, and as soon as you have one, you seem to wanna throw it away.

It is silly of you, for there's only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about. A portrait like this would set you above all the young men in England and make the old men quite jealous if old men are ever capable of any emotion. I know you will laugh at me, his friend replied, but I really can't exhibit it. I have put too much of myself into it.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: That passage is from a book that Solman read at the ripe age 14. It's Oscar Wilde's The Picture of Dorian Gray, which tells the story of a man who trades his soul to remain young and beautiful forever, while a portrait hidden in his attic bears the consequences of those choices. It's a novel about vanity, desire, and the illusion of innocence. When it was first published in 1890, critics called it immoral and indecent. Wilde was forced to revise it and later defend it in court.

Today, it's considered a foundational queer text, one that refuses to draw clean lines between good and evil.

Soman Chainani: When you're growing up gay, you're always inventing a personality, and so you're lying all the time, and you get used to kind of having a bit of a double life.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: And

Soman Chainani: I think you would just end up losing all faith in who you are. Dorian Gray, I always loved because it felt like an example of a novel that transcended itself and had found a metaphor that was so complete for kind of human nature that it became part of culture. I knew it hit a nerve in the same way that I knew interview with a vampire. It hit a nerve at some kind of deep thing that made me intrigued by the book. I think that one, interview with the vampire and talented mister Ripley, I must have read within a two year span of each other.

And that sort of trio spoke very deeply to me. So I don't think I had a reaction in that knowing what that was. I just know that something in that world

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Mhmm.

Soman Chainani: Of those three books was like the Venn diagram of what I would end up resonating with as a human kind of.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: If you had to pinpoint what's going in the center of that Venn diagram.

Soman Chainani: Moral grayness. Right? It's it's this idea of, like, people trying to be good and believing themselves to be good humans, but temptation, narcissism, circumstances, pulling them away from what they know is the good moral compass. So it's this idea of, like, evil as a practical notion. Like, Dorian is so beautiful that when he realizes he has eternal powers of beauty, he realizes he can just use them as he wants.

Like, there's no consequence. And so this idea of, like, having power and being able to exercise it with no repercussions in the same way that once Tom Ripley takes on Dickie's identity and talented mister Ripley, he's free.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: If you

Soman Chainani: think about it, they're all the same story. Interview with a Vampire, it's about being turned into an eternal vampire and having eternal powers. You know? It's this idea of you can commit evil with no repercussions. It's something I think about all the time, and I think Dostoevsky asked this question too.

You kill someone, you commit a murder, and you get away with it. Can you just go about your life? You know? Can you just continue? And then those big questions of what is the conscience worth?

What does it do? So I think all those books sort of deal with those things.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: The freedom Solman enjoyed as a kid to read whatever pulled at him shaped the writer he is today. And while the books he reached for weren't necessarily written for children, they spoke to the swirl of feelings that so many kids carry at that age, curiosity, and fantasy, and desire.

Soman Chainani: Everyone is so much more capable than what adults think they are. And so rather than have them progress too quickly into the adult world, which is what is happening to kids these days

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Right.

Soman Chainani: I think it's important for us to give them stuff at their level that actually satisfies the itches and urges and thoughts and secrets and fantasies and desires they have. But you have to be bold enough to do it and not pretend it doesn't exist. Otherwise, I guarantee you they're gonna be surfing the Internet for stuff that is actually damaging to them.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: That is damaging. Right? There have been times when you've or any of your books when your, like, editor or whoever has said, no. We should reconsider because this feels like it's, you know, too old.

Soman Chainani: Oh, every book. Every book. But what ends up happening is it leads to a productive conversation because I just ask why. Like, okay. So in school freaking evil, there's, like, multiple instances of this where one of them was Sophie ends up in Hort's dorm room.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Yeah.

Soman Chainani: And she locks the bars of the room so no one can get in because they're trying to get in and take her out. And she's like, I'm here overnight.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Yeah. Yeah.

Soman Chainani: And so I was told, in a middle grade novel, you can't have a boy and a girl cohabitate overnight in the same room, especially when there's only one bed. And I was like, who made that room? And they were like, it just that's what it is. So what I did is I said, okay. So then I have Hort say, you can't be in here.

A boy and girl can't cohabitate in the same room with overnight with one. And she goes, that's a stupid rule idea. I've never heard of it, and I'm here. So I'm not leaving.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: So You named it.

Soman Chainani: Yeah. Like, you just name name the role. I'll be like and you use a character to be like, this is stupid. So that happened many times where I'd be like, tell me the role, and I will happily break it. Peace and beauty was a different one because I wanted to write, like, the old style Grimm stories.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Yeah.

Soman Chainani: And I wanted to be able to write them exactly like the Grimm stories were, which were they could go anywhere. They could, you know, be for adults. They could be for kids. They could be for everybody. Like, I just wanted to be able to have total freedom.

And I gave up to my editor who was amazing, and she was like, oh, boy. Once she read it, she's like, I don't want you to don't change anything. She's like, I just don't know how we're doing this. Like, she was trying to figure out how to convey because she's like, I think it's appropriate for 10 and up. I do.

But unless we warn them

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Yeah. They'll know what's coming.

Soman Chainani: They don't you know, they it's gonna be too shocking. And she was like, if it's Dana, we could warn them. And then she was the one who's like, they're just every single story in there is just a little, like, a hot potato. It's, like, dangerous. And then she's like, we could just say, Beast of Beauty, dangerous tales, and then no one can complain.

And I was like, let's try it and never got a word. We had none you know, it's been won awards. It's been all over the place. It's been on state reading list, all that stuff. Not a single complaint.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Interesting.

Soman Chainani: Yeah. And so what I would learn from that is you just have to be honest about what's in there

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Mhmm.

Soman Chainani: And set the audience expectation.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: It's funny how that works. If you're upfront about what a story holds, people tend to trust you. And Sohman has learned that you don't have to water things down to earn that trust.

Soman Chainani: I have a my first young adult book coming out next year.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Oh, yeah. It looks so good. I'm really excited about that. You went like a whole new like, I like

Soman Chainani: Whole new thing. Yeah. And this one is super also. So, you know, even in young adult, my publisher is like, oh my god. And I'm like, it's gonna be fine.

And and you can feel the fear. Everyone's like, what? And I'm like, just relax. It's gonna be fine. And I know that because I test every book with teenagers.

Like, I have young world, the book is called for next year. I've had, what, 15 teenagers read it and

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Oh, I love it.

Soman Chainani: Get all their feedback, hear everything they say. I ask them anything that makes you uncomfortable. You know? So I know it's gonna work. It's just about getting past the nervousness.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Yeah. And it's like, you know, you seem to, like, really know and understand your audience even though people on your team might be nervous. So no matter what, I guess, it seems like you're always writing for them, for the young people, and not for the gaze of the other adults around you.

Soman Chainani: %. And, look, it's the job of publicity, sales, marketing, all the teams at a publisher to be nervous. Right. I mean, they wouldn't be doing their jobs if they weren't, you know, to be stressed about especially about something that's different. Right.

So school for good and evil was essentially a romance in middle grade, which did not exist and made everyone terrified, you know, when we were putting it out. Luckily, I was at debut, and they had low expectations, and they printed so few. You know, like

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Surprise.

Soman Chainani: They were like, okay. You know? Well, here. Good luck. But, like, you know, I had spent enough time around 10 and 11 year old girls to know what Taylor Swift eventually found out, which is that's that's all they think about.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: The School for Good and Evil is the book that catapulted Soman into fame, and with it came years of questions about his thoughts on fairy tales. He's been asked about them in every way imaginable. So it's fair that by now, he's a little fairy tailed out. So when beast and beauty came out, in many ways, it was his closing statement.

Soman Chainani: I think in a lot of ways, beast and beauty was everything I had to say, which is why I think when I finished that book, I was like, okay. This is literally like, if anyone asks how we use fairy tales, I'm just like, here.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Go read this book.

Soman Chainani: Okay. This is my version. But I think what's interesting is the original fairy tales, the grim stories, taught you that good and evil could be weaponized in in either direction. The idea that if you think you're good, that actually can end up being more evil than, you know, accidental evil and stuff like that. And my problem with Disney was always that Disney always said, okay.

Here's the good guy. We're gonna tell you who the good guy is, and they're gonna win at the end no matter what. And I think what it trained people growing up to think is, oh, you just have to know who the good character is because it's identified. So, therefore, I'm the good character in my own life, clearly. Like, I'm the good guy.

And if I'm the good guy, it doesn't matter what I do. The evil person just has to be destroyed. And that argument is, I think, what's led to our situation in this country where everyone thinks they're the good guy. Both sides are like you know, rather than understanding that things are much more morally gray. And I think European cultures that grew up with the original fairy tales have a much more kind of gray view of things.

Everything is a little more balanced and nuanced, I think, because of the stories they learned growing up. You know? We learned this whole, like, very corporate tale of good always wins and happily ever after it, and that's not what the fairy tales teach us.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: The stories we grow up on shape how we see the world, who we think our heroes are, what counts as good or evil, and whether we even question those things at all. And now more than ever, kids are surrounded by stories, but they're mostly watching them or scrolling past them. What they're not doing as much is reading them, imagining them, and making them their own.

Soman Chainani: I think your imagination becomes a source of your greatest desire and also what's personal to you. When it only becomes visual stuff being brought in, that's when you're the most susceptible to having your own personal taste warped. And I think that's the case of what we have now is you have people's taste so susceptible to whatever is being fed to them, and I find that a little scary. And what I tell kids, I've done over 800 school visits. And before, it used to like I said, it used to be more about trying to get them to read my book.

Now I really do go into an in-depth thing that I think kind of scares them sometimes, but they have to hear it, which is you have two choices in your life. You either can have your own brain and imagination. Like, you're gonna have to hold on to it and have it be something that works for you and that you're your own person. Or if you stop reading too early or at all, you lose it. And for the rest of your life, you're being programmed by other people's imagination.

Mhmm. And you are now a consumer and sort of a slave to other people's visions. Right? So you'll never get your own version of Harry Potter. You'll never get your own version of Percy Jackson, whatever.

You're just gonna watch the movie, and you're never gonna get the version that was yours because you can only get that by reading. And it seems hard to pick up a book and read it. But if you only see it as educational Yeah. Then, of course, this could be boring, and no one wants to do it. But if you see it as the one and only way to, like, truly have a mirror into what you see, what is you, then you realize how you don't have a choice.

You know? And if you look at everybody you ever admire in your life, creator, athlete, entrepreneur, anybody that you admire, I guarantee you, they all read. The other thing I tell kids is books are not there to torment you. You go to the library. You give it 10 pages.

That's it. The author has to get you in the first ten pages. If they do not, they failed. Don't read it. Mhmm.

Find something else. Because a book is like a lawnmower. Like, you pull it and, like, either it starts or it doesn't start.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Right.

Soman Chainani: And so I tell them, I'm like, you don't wanna read my book? Try the first ten pages. If you wanna keep going, keep going.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Mhmm.

Soman Chainani: So I think it's that pressure of, I'll get you in the first ten pages. Like, I know I will because I spend six months on my first ten pages and then six months on the rest of the book.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Is that true?

Soman Chainani: I spend so much time.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: You spend a lot of time writing on those first just making sure those first ones are, like

Soman Chainani: Yeah. Over and over, just it has to get you. And not just with like, if you look at school for good evil, there were three chapters that I deleted before the first chapter starts because the end of the three chapters led to that first line. Sophie had waited all her life to be kidnapped. My editor was like, this is my first book ever.

Yeah. She's like, and all those three chapters, do you really need them? I'm like, yes. She's like, but what if you start here? And I realized, like, oh, if you start there, who's gonna put the book down?

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Mhmm.

Soman Chainani: So it was that feeling of learning. And sometimes what I'll do is just imagine I'm a kind of attention addled child and just, like, kind of walk around reading my manuscript on my phone or something

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Mhmm.

Soman Chainani: And be like, is it pulling me through?

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Because that's how you see kids reading. Right? They're just skimming. You have to find a way to, like, every third sentence if they can string it together.

Soman Chainani: %. I think that's how we ended up with the icebreaker phenomenon.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Say more about the icebreaker.

Soman Chainani: Icebreaker is that book that has, like, a kid's cover and is actually, like, the most hardcore porn you can imagine, and it's everywhere.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Yeah. Oh my god. Yes. Tough to talk about that. But, yes, my daughter came home.

She was like, you could not believe this book. She was saying some of the lines out loud to me. I'm like, damn. What are you talking about? And the bus to school.

Soman Chainani: You know? And they're all reading it. I mean, they're all reading it. They're all carrying around. And I thought it was mildly ingenious because it's this awareness that everyone's so, like, attention addled that if you just sort of gave teenagers their own, like, 50 Shades of Gray and sort of gave it a cute cover, and maybe no one would notice.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Yeah. It's bubblegum. It's a bubblegum cover.

Soman Chainani: It's the most, most X rated thing. And that's what I was telling you, that if you don't give kids what they're capable of earlier, and they're gonna go for that. And so that's why anytime the publisher comes back to me with, like, oh, I don't know if this is on the edge or I'm like, listen.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: They're reading, like, graphic novel porn.

Soman Chainani: So, know, it's You know, we're so far beyond that in terms of where we've screwed up. So we need to actually give them the right level of what's going to excite them and what they can handle and what's they can ask questions about and all that stuff, but what's right. To give them icebreaker, I was like and from you know, I look I grew up on Madonna and and Rice at 12 and 13. Like, I'd love to push boundaries, but Yeah. There's lines.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Yeah. I guess there's also lines of, like well, first of all, like, what's, like, even just remotely sort of well written or imaginative or whatever. You know? And then also just what is, like, not appealing to your imagination? What's, like, spelling things out?

Soman Chainani: Well, it's shock value also in the sense of these young girls who are reading icebreaker, they don't know. Like, they can't read it the way we can read it and be like, none of this is remotely realistic or, like

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Correct.

Soman Chainani: How it works in the real world in real life.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Right.

Soman Chainani: They're reading it almost to be shocked, but I think it does some at least some kind of stain on how they what they're looking for in in a guy and how they I just think it causes more problems than it should, where I think if it's done correctly, it should empower. I think everyone came out of reading school for good evil. Even though those those books do get quite sexy by, you know, five and six, girls always felt no matter how much romance were in those books, the girls always felt they were in charge.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Yeah. You know? Yes.

Soman Chainani: They always felt they're and they always felt the boys were, you know, the damsels in distress in those books.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: They are. So your books definitely toe the line, I'd say, of what some people might consider risky to put in front of the kids or at least the kids that the books like, ages they're recommended for. So I was wondering if you ever consider altering your language, like writing in a more, quote, coded way where the meaning is clear to some, but just, like, to avoid running afoul of the book banners, basically.

Soman Chainani: I can't play that way at all. I am very much in the thing of I'm playing the long thing. Like, it'll be at some point, reason will will not and you can try to ban stuff, but kids are gonna find it anyway. Like, in terms of my stuff, I don't change it at all. I actually think, to me, like, if there was an uproar over one of my books, I would be like it would tap into that thing of wanting to be Madonna.

I would be like, oh, I'm Madonna nineteen ninety two. Finally, I achieved it. Like, it would only it would only make me feel happy. So but, no. I mean, more seriously.

I just know it would be illegitimate. You know?

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: I guess I was thinking about it because there is, like, this environmental message in here too. You know? But it's, like, it's really couched in, like, a comp like you said, like, a horror story. Like so it's there, but it's also not hidden. But it's also, like, it's a layer of this story.

Soman Chainani: Yeah. It's a layer. And right? So, like, any book can be banned for any reason. Like, you can make up stuff.

You can in the covenant, you can be like, oh, it's about witches. We have to ban it. Oh, it's about environmental stuff and climate. We have to ban it.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Yeah.

Soman Chainani: Right? Like, you can come from any angle, any side. You can do it with any book on earth. So you just can't feed into all that because 99% of the time, they're super transparent in their objectives and motives.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: By now, it's probably clear that Soman doesn't believe in diluting the kinds of stories that kids get. And he knows that the real challenge today isn't about shielding them from too much. It's just about getting them to pick up a book in the first place.

Soman Chainani: So the thing that I think is important with kids early is to find a book that hooks them for real, where they don't wanna stop. And once they have that feeling, be like, listen. That feeling that you had with this book has to be with any book that you wanna finish Mhmm. Or, you know, at least keep you reading. So if you don't feel that feeling, keep looking.

Right? And give them the freedom to understand that when they hook into a book, it's so overwhelming, like the way I am with PlayWorld. It's so, like, deep, and I needed the reminder too of, okay. This is what it should feel like. It just is so elemental to who we are.

And a a good book is even more than a series because it's so personal the way that you read it. So I think it's about there should be some kind of thing where you're helping a kid learn for the first time what it's like to be hooked by a book once they're able to read. So I think that's the thing. You know? Because I had many readers over the years, especially because school for evil was so romance based.

It was the first time a lot of these girls had read romance in a book. And their parents would come to me, and they're like, they won't read anything else. Yeah. Like, they just read it over and over again, and they keep being like, I want something like this. And I'm like, it's not that they want something like that.

They want the feeling that that book gives them. And you can tell them it's okay to look for something else. And when they find that feeling, it'll be great. But to look for that feeling again.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Don't judge the feeling.

Soman Chainani: No. Don't

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: comment on the feeling.

Soman Chainani: No. The feeling is yeah. That's it. It's like falling in love. Like, every time you find a book that does it for you, it really is like falling in love all over again.

Yeah. And so enjoy that feeling and and nurture it. But first, have to help kids fall in love.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: When Somen sets out to write a new book, he starts by thinking about the kind of stories that have consumed him completely. The ones where the writing is so immersive, so emotionally rich that the edges of the real world start to blur. So for his reading challenge for adults, contemporary immersive reads, he has curated a list of books that achieve just that.

Soman Chainani: So the ones I was thinking of were A Little Life by Hanya Yanagihara, which is like

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: Oh, I love that book so much.

Soman Chainani: Cold thing that a few people had read. I had it in hardcover. Mhmm. And I mean, I was just passing it around right and left. Donna Tartt's The Secret History Yeah.

Really is another one where it's so inhabited that you're just in that world. You just disappear. And then the third one is one I'm reading now, which I think should win everything this year. It's called Play World by Adam Ross. If it doesn't win the National Book Award, I'm gonna lose my temper.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: You can find Soman's reading challenge and all past reading challenges at the readingculturepod.com. And this week's Beanstack featured librarian is Jasmine Haverly, a second year librarian from Aldine Independent School District in Texas. Jasmine shares how competitions and book tastings are growing the reading culture in her library.

Jasmine Haverly: Everything is like, you know what? We can we can do we can one of you guys, I could do it better. So what I've been using is Beanstack, and I have different classes going against each other. We mostly use it by minutes. Students really get into it, who's winning?

We have to win. So that's my biggest, getting them to read, you know? Actually helping them find that great fit too. Because sometimes, they'll just check out a book just because it's pretty on the outside. I'm like, no, guys.

Like, let's let's do a book tasting. Let's let's open it up. Read it, read a few pages, and then you decide if this is a good book or not.

Jordan Lloyd Bookey: This has been The Reading Culture, and you've been listening to my conversation with. Soman Chanani. Again, I'm your host, Jordan Lloyd Bookie, and currently, I'm reading Dream Count by Chimamanda Ngoze Adichie and Graciela in the Abyss by Meg Medina. If you enjoyed today's episode, please take one minute to give us five stars on Apple or wherever you listen. Your reviews really help the show get recommended to others, so thank you for doing that.

This episode was produced by Mel Webb and Lower Street Media and a script edited by Josiah Lamberto Egan. To learn more about how you can help grow your community's reading culture, please check out all of our resources at Beanstack.com, and remember to sign up for our newsletter at thereadingculturepod.com forward slash newsletter for special offers and bonus content. Thanks for listening, and keep reading.